Creator, Cosmos, and Human Destiny
Why are we here?
And where are we going?
Does science have an answer to these two most fundamental questions of human existence? Can mankind determine and direct the future of life on earth purely by scientific means?
This excuse-shattering exposé of Darwin and Dawkins is the Dave Hunt magnum opus you’ve been waiting (and praying) for! Each of Dave’s seminal works—whether on occultism, Catholicism, Calvinism, ecumenism, Islam, or cosmic evolution, have all been, at the time of their publication, his “most important work to date”—and this 608-page refutation of Darwinian evolution (as championed by Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and today’s aggressive “New Atheists”) is no exception.
Also, Links to articles about this topic: http://www.thebereancall.org/node/8361; http://www.thebereancall.org/node/8312
And where are we going?
Does science have an answer to these two most fundamental questions of human existence? Can mankind determine and direct the future of life on earth purely by scientific means?
This excuse-shattering exposé of Darwin and Dawkins is the Dave Hunt magnum opus you’ve been waiting (and praying) for! Each of Dave’s seminal works—whether on occultism, Catholicism, Calvinism, ecumenism, Islam, or cosmic evolution, have all been, at the time of their publication, his “most important work to date”—and this 608-page refutation of Darwinian evolution (as championed by Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and today’s aggressive “New Atheists”) is no exception.
Also, Links to articles about this topic: http://www.thebereancall.org/node/8361; http://www.thebereancall.org/node/8312
Anyone thinking of posting here should know that Rippster deletes comments showing that his "evidence" was forged by liars.
ReplyDeleteNot so, I deleted all comments for space. Andrew I appreciate your comments and discussion.
ReplyDeleteIf the dissentfromdarwin upset you so much, try this resource: 50 scientist who believe in Creation: http://www.thebereancall.org/node/5488
ReplyDeleteor maybe this will help you andrew: http://bassethound.wordpress.com/2007/04/03/real-scientists-who-believe-in-creationism-do-they-exist/
ReplyDeleteYou needed space? Maybe you should rethink your format. Your posts have hardly any comments at all. It's your time, so do what floats your boat. But it seems kind of sheltered.
ReplyDeleteRippster,
ReplyDelete11 whole comments wouldn't cause you to "run out of space" even if this were a BBS hosted on a Commodore 64 with a single 5.25" floppy drive back in 1985. (Hint: Blogspot does not work that way.)
I think we both know why you tried to delete the evidence.
As for your new efforts: Do you really not get it? The point isn't that I am "upset" at the lying frauds at the Discovery Institute. The point is that YOU KEEP QUOTING FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE LYING TO YOU, and when I pointed that out, your response was to LIE YOURSELF and delete the evidence.
Doesn't that bother you even a little bit?? Do you honestly think this is a winsome way to reach out to the lost? Do you honestly think this meets the requirements of 1 Peter 3:15?
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteYou are right in that in order to reach out to people I have to have some integrity. I felt like the conversation was only an attack on me about the website and not a productive dialogue about the "true" evidence for God. It's my choice to delete that and to steer people to the truth about God. Sorry you disagree with it. I erased my comments as well.
So, to be clear, your definition of integrity is:
ReplyDelete1. Lying about evolution, and then
2. Lying about deleting comments on your blog.
This is not a good start if your goal is "integrity."
I'm not lying about evolution. I believe it's a false theory. I didn't want the comments on here, b/c I felt they misrepresented my sources. I humbly apologize for this and I'm sorry I deleted your comments. God bless
ReplyDeleteDustin,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, let me say that I accept your apology. I appreciate that it's difficult to do something like that, and I acknowledge that you could have taken an even lower road (e.g., moderating comments, banning my IP address, posting fake comments under my name, etc. -- which are all things your fellow Christians have done to me in the past). I do think you should acknowledge that deleting someone's comments because you disagree with them is pretty unethical, and then lying about why you did it is out-and-out wrong.
Moreover: I know you "believe evolution is a false theory." That's not what makes you a deliberate liar. What makes you a deliberate liar is that you (1) sent me to a site and said "this is a list of scientists who disbelieve in evolution," when in reality, 90% of the scientists on that list ACCEPT evolution; and (2) when I pointed that out, you engaged in the deceptive behaviors described above. Believe what you want, but don't misrepresent the facts.
Now: why am I upset with you? Because you sought me out. You have your brand-new blog, and you went over to the Atheist Experience, and you invited us to come here.
I did that. I came here. I read your posts. I responded as your God would command -- "with gentleness and respect." I treated you politely, I carefully went through your arguments, and I shared the truth with you.
You responded to that invitation to dialogue by completely ignoring what I had to say and then engaging in the behaviors described above (that we don't need to rehash).
So, I'll ask you again: are you interested in actually having a conversation with a real, live, polite atheist? Are you willing to LISTEN as well as witness? If so, I'll talk to you. If not, I'll move on.
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteThank you! I am interested in having a conversation. That's why I started this blog. I do make mistakes and don't get all the "best" sources. But my heart is to lead people to God and compel them. I've really been changed by Jesus Christ! He lives and reigns as we speak. People will say: "Prove it", I'm trying to through this ministry, my personally testimony, and other things.
Dustin,
ReplyDeleteExcellent! Here's where I suggest we begin:
I am an atheist. As a child, I was raised in a Christian home, attended church regularly, was confirmed (Lutheran), etc. As a young teenager, I was involved in the fundamentalist evangelical youth organization "Young Life."
All in all, these were positive experiences. I had (and have!) a happy relationship with my parents. I was never "mad at God."
However, in early adolescence, I started to think about the doctrines I was being taught in church and at Young Life, and those doctrines didn't make much sense to me. I read "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" (and later, Lee Strobel's execrable "The Case For Christ") and -- as a high school debater with an eye for good argumentation -- realized that these arguments were *terrible*. So, as a self-professed Christian, I went about doing what it looks like you're doing here; trying to amass the best evidence I could for my faith.
And after a couple of years, I realized I couldn't do it. I realized that the things that pastors and youth ministers would commend to me as "evidence" were full of logical fallacies, distortions, and outright lies. Other sources weren't lying -- but they weren't evidence. They were full of fluffy, happy, feel-good-stories about heaven and clouds and puppies, but they didn't answer the fundamental question: is this TRUE?
I kept searching, but -- and this is still true today -- I never found any honest evidence that Christianity or any other religion is true.
After a while of identifying as an agnostic, I decided that I wasn't using the term properly and that I was, in fact, an atheist. That's where I am now: I am not convinced that your God (or anyone else's gods) exist. I'm still open to being convinced; that's why I'm talking to you.
So my first question for you is:
1. Do you think that I'm wrong? In other words, do you think that I am making a mistake in being an atheist?
Some (mostly liberal) Christians -- probably not you, if your links are any indication of your beliefs -- have a "live and let live" attitude. They have a personal experience with what they think is Jesus Christ, but they recognize that not everyone shares their experiences, and so they think that it's perfectly reasonable for me to go on being an atheist (and, of course, that their God isn't going to send me to Hell for an eternity because of it).
With those people, I politely thank them and we go our separate ways. Let me reiterate: I'm not interested in converting you *away* from Christianity. Be a Christian! Have fun with it! It's your life; you do your thing and I'll do mine.
However, if you think I'm wrong -- if you think I should be a Christian -- then we do indeed have something to talk about. You're criticizing my beliefs, and I'd either like to be corrected if I'm making a series of mistakes, or I'd like to correct you if you have a misconception about them.
So here's my first question for you, again: Am I wrong?
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteThank you for being so upfront and sharing your testimony! That helps me see where you are coming from greatly! So, to answer your question: "I think you are wrong." I do believe Hell exists and that is why I'm trying to compel people to come to Christ. Hell was never intended for us, but for the devil and his angels before creation. However, because of the sin problem, God must be just and punish sin! If he wasn't righteous, He would let it go unpunished.
(Example: Do you think that a murder in the court of law that stands before a judge guilty should go free? Of course not! We all stand before God guilty of breaking his moral laws (10 commandments) Our conscience tells us this.
So, do we pay the infinite penalty of sin in hell separated from God forever? Because that's what His justice demands! Or, do we turn from our sin and place our trust in Jesus as being the substitute on our behalf and having our penalty lay on him. Then receiving that gift of forgiveness and eternal life. This is the message of Christianity!
Not walking some aisle, signing a card, being confirmed ( I was as a former-Catholic) being a good person. But a time in your life when you cry out to God and ask him for forgiveness and "surrender" everything over to Christ!
That ain't easy to surrender our wills over to God. But He will give us the gift of faith! We must have child-like faith, (not blind faith) but receiving the gift of salvation as a child!
Dustin,
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that Hell is real?
I would like to share my personally testimony with you as well, if you don't mind. I will try and give the summary of it on here without too many details.
ReplyDeleteI grew up Catholic. I went to Catholic school, was an altar boy, was confirmed in high school. I went to Mass almost every Sunday with my parents. Towards the end of high school, I got into drugs and drinking. I developed a pot addiction and carried that on into my first year of college.
My belief in God at that time wasn't real. It was apart of my routine to go to church and never really thought about it much. My fruits obviously shown I wasn't a Christ-follower!
On my bday in Oct 2003, I decided to experiment with mushrooms. I had a bad trip and was definitely experiencing "evil" and "demons" wanting me to die! I freaked out and left a friends apartment where I was tripping. I tried driving home. On my way home it was hard for me to drive because of the hallucinations.
In the end, I ended up hitting and killing a jogger passing on that hill. I ended up crashing and was taken to hospital.
I was out for 10 months after being all over the news and media. I was eventually sentenced to 4.5 years in prison. I had no criminal record prior to this or had been in jail.
During my stay in prison, I began to search for meaning. I was carrying this immense guilt and shame from all I had done. To my family, the victim's family,etc. I wanted answers and knew God was calling me to Himself.
I was still Catholic at the time a fellow Christian brother asked me to go to Protestant services and Bible study with him. I agreed. It had been the first time I ever read the Bible in my life really.
Through sermons and the truth of Scripture being taught and meditated upon, my eyes became opened and I was aware of something I never knew before!
As a former Catholic, all I knew was ritual, rules, no fun, good works, and no explanations for God. But God spoke to my heart through His Word and I realized that salvation wasn't through being good, but that it was a gift of His love for me!!
I surrendered and trusted Jesus in 2005 one night on my bunk. I said: "God if your real show me, and forgive me for every sin! I accept You and all you have to offer!"
Salvation is not to be based completely on experiences, but the Truth of God's Word, but God showed Himself strong to me that night. I felt His love pouring into my spirit. I had never felt that kind of love in my life!!!
Since then, I'm free from that guilt and free to serve Him! I love the Lord and He has done sooo much for me since then!
(Accept that or not, it's my testimony, and no one can take that away from me.)
How do I know Hell is real?
ReplyDeleteFor starts, I kinda always believed in Hell, but that only really bad people went there. My belief about Hell was changed when I committed that crime and the Law of God was convicting my conscience!!! I knew if I died that day, I was going to end up there.
Jesus talked more about hell than heaven in the New testament. I trust His words and that He was concerned about people going there. Also, my experience on mushrooms set an impression in my heart of "true evil" and existence of Hell.
Dustin,
ReplyDeleteThank you for sharing your testimony with me. As I said previously, I'm not at all interested in converting you away from Christianity. I understand that you've gone through a lot and I wouldn't dream of trying to take that away from you.
I do think it's a little sad that you believe in a God who creates a place of eternal, conscious torment, as well as a God that allows for people to be sent there. But again -- that's up to you. That's your belief.
My concern is when you tell me that I should believe that Hell exists. Now you'e explained why you, personally believe in Hell. My question, however, is one of fact: since you're telling me that I'm wrong, how do *I* know that Hell exists?
You've said Jesus talks about it in the New Testament. First, I would encourage you as a Christian to examine the many fine Christian scholars and theologians who argue that the Bible does not teach a literal Hell. For example -- and I'm hardly an expert on this -- two of the words used in Greek that our Bibles translate as "Hell" are "Tartaros" (meaning the Greek concept of Hell, a place without eternal conscious torment) and "Gehenna" (meaning a literal dump outside of Jerusalem). Neither of those mean what you interpret Hell as meaning.
But -- and this is the key part of this response -- I'm an atheist. I don't care what Jesus had to say. If Hell is real, surely we would be able to detect it somehow? Is it in the center of the Earth, or in space, or in another dimension? Where is it?
If (as I suspect) we can't find out where this "Hell" is supposed to be, then how should I know whether it exists or not?
Thanks!
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteGehenna literally means a place or state of everlasting punishment. And your right about it being a place outside of Jerusalem used to help describe Hell.
Do I want to believe in Hell? No, sinners "naturally" want to believe their sin will never be punished. And if it is punished, that God would never allow it to go on forever and ever. But that's what "we" want to think. Not what God has said and proclaimed.
Because God created eternal hell for the devil and his angels, He has the final say on whether this place "actually" exists and why we should avoid it. Jesus made mention of Hell and a coming judgment more than 70 times.
If He claimed to be God and was the Son of God, then surely He knows it exists and warns us! It is something called "absolute truth" which many postmodern critics say that it doesn't exist. Everything is relative.
But Truth does exist and Jesus was "the way, the truth, and the life."
Because God has revealed to me through His Word that eternal punishment exists, I believe that I have to share that truth with you so you can believe it also. If in order to "believe" that Hell is real, you need physical evidence for it, I don't have it. No one does, maybe only those who have claimed to have been there and back to life again.
But, that's why trusting in the Bible and Jesus' words to us is so key! Atheists usually attack the Bible, b/c if they can throw that out, then they throw out all the stuff they don't like or understand with their natural minds. I used to think like that too, before I was born-again by the Holy Spirit.
As for these "fine Christian scholars" that deny a literal hell, they are misrepresenting God's Truth and trying to soften it up to suit their own selfish beliefs. That's not what the Bible teaches. (Examples: Satan has deceived millions of people into believing a variety of other "softer" options. Satan, "the father of lies" (John 8:44), never ceases to take advantage of those who are willing to lay aside Biblical revelation for something that is more palatable. And so today, millions of Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists believe in annihilationism. They believe that God will annihilate the unrighteous and they will simply cease to exist. Others in the "Emerging" Church movement are buying into something called Universalism. Universalism is the belief that because of Jesus' death on the cross, all people will eventually be saved.
Jesus warned about "false prophets" and that " a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. They will reject the truth and chase after myths." ( 2 Tim. 4:3-4).
If you don't believe the Bible to actually be God's infallible truth, then I can't show you Hell is real. And if that answer "soothes" your conscience some more, then there is nothing I can do. God opposes the proud, but give grace to the humble. I pray the Lord reveals this all important truth to you that "hell is a literal everlasting place" just as "heaven is a literal everlasting place."
And because Hell is such an important topic and people hate the idea of it, who doesn't ( I don't want my loved one going there) I think I need to post an article I use on here.
ReplyDeleteI will say Andrew,
ReplyDeleteThat although I believe Hell is a literal place, I don't think the "fire" described there is literal but symbolic. It was created for spirit beings, so I personally believe (can't be dogmatic) that the fire describes the accusing conscience of our guilt for all of eternity.
Dustin,
ReplyDeleteI don't disbelieve in Hell because it "soothes my conscience." I disbelieve in Hell because it's imaginary.
Why should I believe otherwise?
Look at the claims that are being made. How can Hell be imaginary? "Imaginary" makes it sound like a fairy tale or something. This is no fairy tale. Sin and Evil must be punished! God's justice demands it. Just as if our Justice system demands that crime be punished. That's what justice means. But b/c we are the ones on trial, it's hard for us to comprehend.
ReplyDeletePlease be aware that in this life, people can be wrong about a lot of things and still survive. But when this life is over, if you were wrong about Hell and God's only provision for your sins, you have to pay for your owns sins throughout eternity.
Jesus said, "if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins" ( John 8: 24). Is Jesus a Liar, Lunatic, or Lord? You have to decide. He made some HUGE claims about himself. I think if He were anything but Lord, even historians wouldn't have seen Jesus as a moral teacher. He would have been painted as a fool or cult leader like Charles Manson. But we see Him as otherwise.
(Also, check out my new post about Hell)
Okay, you're sort of all over the map here, so let me try to be clear:
ReplyDelete1. On Hell: You haven't really answered my central objection. I'm not saying "Hell doesn't make sense if there's a loving God." I'm saying: if Hell is real, where's the evidence of it? Where can I find it? Where is it located?
2. On Liar/Lunatic/Lord: There's a fourth "L" -- legend. I think there's no good evidence that a real person named Jesus made the claims that are attributed to him in the various books of the New Testament, and there is no attestation of Jesus as a "great moral teacher" by any contemporary historian (e.g., Josephus).
3. On "you could be wrong": Sure. So what? We could both be wrong and Islam correct; in that case, we'd both be headed to Muslim Hell after we die. There are thousands and thousands of religions; we can't believe in ALL of them just in case. So this is no argument -- all we can do is try to make the best decision we can based on the available evidence. That's what I'm trying to do.
So I guess the bottom line is that your arguments all assume your God exists. I'm not at that point. Can you show me any reason to think your God actually does exist? Because so far we're just going around in circles -- you're quoting the Bible to me, but that's no more persuasive than quoting the Koran, the Iliad, or Moby Dick. They're all just works of literature; none of them are true.
Make sense?
I'm sorry Andrew, I believe the Bible is TRUE and that Biblical Christianity has evidence of being the only way to the true and only God! Other all religions are man's "attempt" and good works to get to their god. Biblical Christianity is how God himself became man and already did what we humans couldn't accomplish ourselves. Thus bringing us near to him through the death of the cross. There is a huge gap b/w Christianity and all other religions: One says "DO" and the other says "DONE". One is "human accomplishment" and the other is "Divine accomplishment."
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry I couldn't answer your objection to Hell. I can't give you a geographical place or location. The only evidence is my faith in the Word of God and what Jesus has said. Also, my conscience tells me too. I know these answers are not satisfactory to you. But in order for you to understand anything I'm saying, you have to place your faith in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and become "born-again." Your natural mind will not understand nor receive spiritual truths until you do this. I'm just telling you right now!
The only source I can refer you to about evidence of Hell, is these testiomonies of people who have claimed to witness Hell and describe it in their books:
1. (Divine Revelation of HEll) http://www.amazon.com/Divine-Revelation-Hell-Mary-Baxter/dp/0883682796/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302906900&sr=1-1
2. (Scenes beyond the Grave) http://www.amazon.com/Scenes-Beyond-Grave-Trance-Marietta/dp/1417948345/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302906973&sr=1-1
These are their personal accounts. I've read Scenes beyond the Grave and believe it to be legit. The other one I've heard it was good.
Dustin,
ReplyDeleteYou have stated a few times that hell wasn't created for man, but for Satan and the fallen angels. First I would like to ask you, do you believe the biblical god is all-knowing, meaning that he knows everything, past, present, and future? If so, how can he create something without knowing all of its purposes? When he created hell, did he not know that he would torture man in it as well? If he did, how could he say, "I'm only creating this for Satan and the angels..." without also thinking that man would be burned in it as well. Matter of fact, isn't man being burned in it as we speak, and Satan and the fallen angels later after the second coming (since they are supposed to be on earth oppressing us and stuff). So, man is burning first before the ones who it was intended for? That makes no sense.
BTW, I'm not Andrew, lol.
ReplyDeleteAndy! (not andrew)
ReplyDeleteGreat question! It makes me think good and hard too honestly! LOL
So yes, Hell and the Lake of fire was originally intended for the Devil and his angels due to the rebellion against God in Heaven 'before' man was created. However, the key word is 'rebellion' or sin.
Now since Adam first "sinned" in the Garden by partaking of the forbidden fruit, every man since has been born into sin. 1 John 3:4 states: "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." The term 'lawlessness' conveys more than transgressing against God's law. It conveys the ultimate sense of rebellion, i.e, living as if there was no law or ignoring what law exists.
So to answer your question: Yes, God is all knowing and did create eternal punishment for those who "rebel" or "sin" against His Holy Law. Who rebelled? Satan,his angels and us! It was initially created for Satan and his angels for their rebellion, but because of man's fall into sin, we as a consequence end up there for our rebellion as well.
Your 2nd question: People who have "rejected" God's only provision for escaping Hell (Jesus' life, death, and resurrection on our behalf) are being held unto the "Day of Judgment" in Hades. Revelation 20: 13-15 states: "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
So people are now in the present being punished in Hades. It is described as a place where an accusing conscience fed by undying memories of lost opportunity; and permanent separation from God and everything good. So why are people being punished before the Satan and his angels?
These verses tell us that demons are suffering in Hell as we speak and some of them are not released yet: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;then The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the Day of Judgment to be punished." ( 2 Peter 2:4;9)
Also Jude 6: "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for Judgment on the great Day."
So you see, they "are" being punished along with people. And remember, God does not wish that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He take no pleasure in the death of the wicked! But His Law and Justice demands it! That is why a good God punishes evil!
Andy,
ReplyDeleteHere is where it says that God prepared Hell for the Devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41: "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
God did realize in creating Hell that Man would fall and so also created a way out before the foundation of the earth: "All who dwell on the earth will worship him (Antichrist), whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8)
God had purposed for Christ to die on behalf on sinners before we even rebelled! Acts 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
What you believe is that if we can't muster the faith to believe in your god, we deserve to be burned forever? IMO, your god sees us as garbage if we don't follow him because of unbelief/lack of faith, and will burn us like they burned the garbage in gehenna of ancient Israel. At least the garbage eventully burned away, but sinners will burn forever. How is that just again?
ReplyDeleteAgain, if he is all-knowing, why did he state it as "prepared for the devil and his angels.." when he knew at the exact moment that he created hell that man would be placed there for punishment as well? He knew it before he created anything. If he is all-knowing, he had to have known, there's no way around it.
How can any christian say, with the knowledge that their god is all-knowing, that hell was created for Satan and his angels as if it wasn't intended for man? Again, it had to be intended for man as well even before the biblical god created anything. Just as you say Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, which didn't actually happen until much later, according to the bible. Before the foundation of the world, your god knew that hell was created to punish mankind as well.
Andy,
ReplyDeleteFirst, Just because God is all-knowing doesn't mean that He was unjust in creating Hell. SIN is the problem!!! And until you see 'your' sin and how offensive it is to a Holy God, you'll never understand the purpose of Hell. Maybe this example will help you to see the seriousness of sin: ( A man comes home and finds that his entire family has been murdered. He finds that man who did this standing by the bodies. In a fit of rage, he wants to take vengeance out on this man. But he comes to his senses and somehow manages to tie him up and allow the Justice system to punish him. In court, the Judge sees the man of being guilty as charged. BUT, this judge says: 'No big deal, your guilty, but I'm allowing you to go free!' Wouldn't that Judge be more evil than the man who murdered that family??????)
SIN is the crime being committed against God. So how is the God of the Bible unjust in punishing people who reject God's only provision for the penalty of sin in Hell? Where would be the justice in not having punishment for it? We should be saying: "Thank God he has even 'provided' a way for us to be saved!!!!
Correction Andy,
ReplyDeleteGod had in his mind before the earth was created for His only Son to die on a cross for man, just as He had in his mind to create Hell.
That's what makes it so awesome!!! He created the punishment that His justice demands!!! But also created an ESCAPE that HE Himself would pay for that exact punishment on that cross! Praise God!
( A man comes home and finds that his entire family has been murdered. He finds that man who did this standing by the bodies. In a fit of rage, he wants to take vengeance out on this man. But he comes to his senses and somehow manages to tie him up and allow the Justice system to punish him. In court, the Judge sees the man of being guilty as charged. BUT, this judge says: 'No big deal, your guilty, but I'm allowing you to go free!' Wouldn't that Judge be more evil than the man who murdered that family??????)
ReplyDeleteSure, if the man says "I'm sorry, please forgive me." Isn't that what your god does? A man can kill 1000 people but then turn to your god for foriveness and he gets to live forever with him with no punishment, but a man can live a good life, help others, contribute to society, but not believe in your god and then burn forever.
So, using an example like you did: A man gives money to a struggling family so that they can have groceries for the next month, he donates a kidney to a patient who would die without it, and ultimately he dives in front of a car to save a young boy. He is severely injured and hospitalized for many months. When he is released he is ordered to court and the judge decided that this man deserves torture for the rest of his eartly life because when he saved the boy's life, he was breaking the law by j-walking. What kind of judge is that? He's insane!
"SIN is the crime being committed against God. So how is the God of the Bible unjust in punishing people who reject God's only provision for the penalty of sin in Hell? Where would be the justice in not having punishment for it? We should be saying: "Thank God he has even 'provided' a way for us to be saved!!!!"
ReplyDeleteSo you believe that eternal torture is the just payment? ETERNAL TORTURE? I could think of something better and I'm not omnipotent. Just annhilate them out of existence.
Andy,
ReplyDeleteBut it's not up to you to decide what is the Just punishment for sin. Your not God! A soul is eternal and God doesn't annihilate them out of existence.
People end up in Hell because they "willfully" reject what Christ has done for them on the Cross. They reject any need for salvation and often times "excuse" sin.